Maim and Guardian Shield - still broken

Can only mention 10 people…
@ForumAdmin @ForumModerator @Hedge @taytron

@Bane is my go-to guy to explain to me when maim should work :grin:

Video available?

I’m collecting some screenshots. Not going through the hassle of recording, cutting and converting to some low quality gif because the forum doesn’t allow the upload of videos.

Alright. Here we go. Naya has a shield up, Solange doesn’t.
headshot

Naya’s stats:

Solange’s stats

After Negan’s rush (see his icon). Solange has reduced HP, Naya’s shield is down but still has 605 HP. It shows the icon, that Maim has been applied though.

I don see the icon above Naya, but I will take your word for it that she has the Debuff of maim

Maim is both damage and a debuff. I often equate him tot the 5* yellow victor of even Diego now. When either of Diego of Victor rush, they do damage and apply the debuff of defense down. HOWEVER if a toon has a guardian bubble up, the bubble negates the damage and the debuff since the debuff is tied to doing damage.
However, maim seems to be special as the debuff of the maim utself is applied through guardian shield even when the damage is negated by said shield. This is wrong IMO. The maim debuff is directly tied to the maim damage, as they are literally in the same phrase, Maim.

SO as it stands, Maim debuff is applied through guardian shields even if the said shield blocks the maim damage. Which I believe is a bug

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Uploaded the wrong screenshot, I made a couple to make sure I got the icon on it. Here ya go @Bane

headshot

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I’ve seen this commented a few times, is this correct? I’ve only just got a maim toon so no chance to test myself, but surely the shield should block the main damage?

The original explanaition doesnt say as such?

I totally agree. And Maim used to not go through guardian shields. I know this for a fact, because I used that green Negan quite a bit when he came out.

That behaviour changed when they ‘fixed’ blue Maim Morgan.

Thats a better screenshot,

Just out of interest, did Naya attack again?

There was a time where the toon had died but was still standing

Look at the screen shots above, Naya has as shield, took no damage but was maimed

Killed Naya that turn. Regarding your other post towards Bane, see my post above.

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Ah, now I see what you mean when you say there is a damage instance and a debuff.

But honestly, that would seem to be an awkward implementation.

Think i understand it better now, simply put

The maim took 600 from her total health, i.e. it applied

But no actual damage was given because of the shield

Thing is though that from reading the entry in the combat reference thread, this shouldn’t be two separated interactions. Seems like they changed that part when they tried to fix Morgan.

The question now is, what happens, when the remaining HP pool gets smaller than the actual HP?

They broke it. The standard it is a debuff is dependent on damage (meaning applied at same time like those Diego’s AR) the debuff WILL NOT apply the debuff if the damage is negated

Yup, totally broken. The problem still is consistency though. If both Naya and Solange would have had a shield up, Solange would still have taken the damage as primary target.

So even if they would redefine Maim to a damage and debuff instance, they should make it consistent to the mechanics already in place.

One of the things i’ve noticed when checking more closely with maim with interactions vs guardian shield, it has 2 behaviors.

Behavior 1 always happens to targets with no guardian buff and that is when maim is dealt, the new lower maximum is set and the maim damage dealt is also subtracted from the current health. The second part is what debuffs the guardian shield.

Behavior 2 happens when there is guardian buff. The fixed damage is blocked and debuffs guardian shield but the new lower maximum is still set.

Examples detailing it further

When the opponent is full health with a guardian shield is hit by maim damage…

  1. Behavior 1 debuffs guardian shield
  2. HP damage is dealt by forcing to conform to the new maximum hp

When an opponent has 4k maximum hp but only has 500 hp left. When struck by 1600 maim damage.

  1. Behavior 1 debuffs guardian buff
  2. New lower maximum is lowered to 2400 hp but does no active hp since that part was blocked.

So all in all, there are 2 parts to maim.

  1. Maim does active hp damage to target which is the physical hit damage which debuffs guardian shield

  2. The maximum hp is lowered on the opponent which is the debuffing part.

It also means that maim damage does actual hp in 2 different ways.

  1. the direct physical part against opponents with no guardian buff

  2. Active hp is forced out to conform to the new lower maximum hp

Behavior 2(debuff) part of maim is what also affects bonus hp when it’s at 100%. So if bonus hp damage is dealt, it’s only by this method.


More simplified version

Maim damage does two things

[physical damage part]Maim damage value as physical damage dealt to hp (part that debuff guardian shield)

[debuff part] Maim damage value subtracted from Maximum opponent hp value


Another thing to note for the way it acts vs an opponent with a guardian shield buff.

The shield is debuffed by the physical part of maim which is blocked but the debuff part still occurs.

So another words the debuff part happens first, then the physical part of the maim damage occurs.

This may or may not be the bug here. Since with other things attack hits first and if it doesn’t connect, the debuff never occurs.

Only straight debuffs and negative statuses can bypass guardian shield. So I’m not sure if this is a special rule for maim or not.

Just looking for clarification here - I just used my dale to check this out because I know dale was bugged not long ago. I used his rush - it applied -60 defence debuff to all toons, reduced all toons by 400 maim which is normal and to toons without a guardian shield applied 400 damage, but on Jesus and siddiq both had a guardian shield. Their shield broke as expected, their max hp reduced by 400, no damage was dealt but the -60 defence buff was still applied. Don’t get me wrong, I like the additional help but would you say that’s wrong? thanks

Well, depends. Back in the days the narrative was, that once the rush comes with a damage instance, the shield should break, no damage done and no debuff applied.

This whole messing around with the code didn’t help. When Dale came out, I posted somewhere that I’d find it unlikely that they’d change it back to stock behaviour because that would have nerfed Dale by quite a bit and people were going nutz over him.

I tested around some (as in alot) more. Actually Maim flat damage is never applied when a shield is up. That just gets masked when the toon has max HP. In such a case, the Maim HP reduction kicks in but - technically speaking - the toon can’t have more HP than his HP pool allows. So the HP gets reduced because of HP pool size, not because of the flat damage done. At least that’s what I now think is going on. So my initial statement, that only the secondary target is bugged, is wrong. I used Maim on full HP toons when testing, so I ran into the issue with the HP pool.

I still think this is awkward behaviour and should be looked at.

@Bane @Ianybob

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Mhmm in my case Jesus had less hp than the max and guardian shield up - when maim was applied his max hp decreased and -60 defence applied. And on sid who had full hp, same thing - reduction of max hp and -60 defence. My main question has to do with the -60 defence being applied even though maim damage is not performed. Hope I’m saying that right

His AR works like Harper, the debuff of defense down is applied to all enemies. However, maim is the issue. It’s both damage and a debuff in one form. Idk how they intended it to work but in my opinion if the maim damage part is blocked by guardian then so should the debuff of maim